海上诗歌艺术沙龙（城市 · 言志系列第二十九期）谈论诗歌时我们在谈论什么？——臧棣诗歌讲读会于9月8日晚在上海明圆美术馆举办，共同感受朝向新生、朝向未知、且根植于生命的诗歌想象。

The poetry art salon(the twenty-ninth) "What are we talking about when we talk about poetry? --Zang Di's poetry lecture reading" held on the evening of September 8th at the Shanghai Mingyuan Art Museum, where we will experience together the poetic imagination that is oriented towards the newborn, towards the unknown, and rooted in life.

《谈论诗歌时我们在谈论什么？》海报

Poster of "What are we talking about when we talk about poetry?" 

序：诗意来自何处，关系到文学生成的来路和纠葛，我们得扪心自问自个的传承和启蒙局促之处。“五四”以降白话诗和古典发生断裂，诗意的转化已成定局。语言、地基和伦理的关注都不一样了，农业王国的浇灌和工业熔炉的浇铸，对生存五官的扑面感受肯定是迥异的，我们口口声声强调要写真实的感觉，批评讲究修辞的人流于形式主义的苍白，以此寓于传承的偶像自给自足。值得反问的是，何谓真实。

Where does the poetry come from? It’s a question on the development and the entanglements in literature. We have to reflect on the deficiency in the passing-down and the enlightenment. May 4th Movement broke the strict regulations in the classical poetry. It determined the transitions in poetry. Along with the attention shift in language, foundation and ethics, the poetry has gone through the agricultural civilization as well as the industrialized era. The appreciation and feelings from the poetry have definitely changed. It’s the truth that we emphasize the most. We often criticize the rhetorically powerful poems for being over formalism. We also disregard the traditional and classical poems for being too self-satisfied. Consequently, it’s a worthwhile question to seek for the definition of truth.

语句的关系和表述惯性带来的审美感，往往容易造成真实的错觉，以为古典榜样的稀释就是真实，文学范型的腔调就是真实。

We have got accustomed to the relationship and the expression in sentences. This aesthetic can easily produce an illusion on the truth. We take the examples in classical poems as the truth. Meanwhile we also regard the literary tone as the truth. However, they are not true at all.

要紧的是，我们现在写的是当代诗。

Most importantly, we are now writing the contemporary poems.

我们落入的现实感跟田园风貌以及风花雪月隔得太远，至于从现实提炼并超越的宏论，据此业已失效。原因是它的幅度和精度均有瑕疵，哪怕我们日夜熟读诗经楚辞，创造性转化的机制仍然不会一蹴而就，内在的理路总是粘滞性的。难就难在这里。

There is a huge gap between our sense of truth and the rural scenery as well as romantic love stories in real life. Consequently, it doesn’t make sense when we extract concepts from the reality and explore further. The reason behind is that both the extent and the accuracy have deficiencies. Even if we keep reading The Book of Songs and Poetry of the South for days and nights, it still takes a long time to make a creative shift between literature and reality. There is always a connection inside them and it’s the difficulty.

汉语古典和西域现代都不妨成为标杆，接下来怎么办？诗意和思想上的古今之争和中外之争，会轻而易举地消解？

If Chinese classical poems and Western modern poems become the examples, what’s the next step? Will the poetry, the battle between the classic and the modern, the fight between Chinese and western poems easily go away?

八十年代以来，先锋诗似乎自成一个小传统，神话八十年代的冲动，带来的体内循环同样不可忽视，反思和甄别正是新动力的源泉。

Since 1980s, the pioneering poems have created their own tradition. The impulsion which came from the mythical literature in the 1980s brought new power inside itself. The source was reflection and identification.

上海，开埠后崛起的大都市，新诗的现代性呈现自有早期白话诗的土壤，民国诗歌风格化的走向并非单一。直至当代，一直有其内在隐秘的涌流，引而不发是因为沪渎吴越的心理基质，值得我们回眸并深掘。

Shanghai is a metropolitan city after the opening of ports. Free verses have nurtured the modernity in new poems. The style trend for the poems in the Republic is diversified. Until now, there still exists internal and covert ideology and the mentality of Shanghai has decided it, which deserves our recalling and exploration.

全球商业化的调性和价值观统辖了我们共同的天空，朝九晚五的常态和焦虑没法用田野和隐喻来化解。周游了一圈，到地球最脱俗的世外桃源，也只是片刻的遐想和顿悟，浪漫和机巧，甚至愤懑的激情对诗歌写作的提升无益。

The commercialized tone and value have administered our collective sky as well as this whole universe. The rural scenery and metaphors can neither change the work-life routine nor ease our anxiety. If you have the chance to a retreat away from the reality, you can only get a momentary reverie and insight. These feelings aren’t beneficial to the improvement in poetry composition, such as romance, cleverness, anger and passion.

诗歌主题和语言的地方性特质，怎么强调都不为过。我们的真实首先得立足于当下，这个基点晕染开来的水土流变、历史重负、家国宗族蜕变以及人作为人的终极性追问：肉体和时光的永恒对峙，这是我们的真实——诗性而尴尬的非诗意处境，它就在我们每天生活的城隅上空。

We can’t emphasize the significance of the theme and the locality too much. First and foremost, the truth must base on the present. From this start point, we have ultimate questions on landscape, history, mother land and ourselves. It’s the truth that there is an eternal contradiction between human life and time. This embarrassing and non-poetic situation stays on the sky of every city corner in our daily life.

_古冈 Gu Gang

本期诗人 

Poet of this issue

臧棣

Zang Di

臧棣，北京大学文学博士。现任教于北京大学中文系。著有诗集《燕园纪事》《骑手和豆浆》《情感教育入门》《沸腾协会》《尖锐的信任丛书》《诗歌植物学》《非常动物》《精灵学简史》《臧棣的诗》（蓝星诗库）等。当选“中国当代十大杰出青年诗人”“中国十大新锐诗歌批评家”，曾获人民文学诗歌奖、昌耀诗歌奖、屈原诗歌奖、鲁迅文学奖诗歌奖。

Zang Di, Beijing University Literature Doctor, now is Beijing University Chinese Department professor. He is the author of the poetry collections "Yanyuan Chronicle", "Rider and Soymilk", "Introduction to Emotional Education", "Boiling Association", "Sharp Trust Series", "Poetry Botany", "Very Animals", "A Brief History of Elvishness", "Zang Di's Poetry" (Blue Star Poetry Library), and so on. He has been elected as one of the "Ten Outstanding Young Poets of Contemporary China" and "Ten New Poetry Critics of China", and has been awarded the People's Literature Poetry Prize, the Chang Yao Poetry Prize, the Qu Yuan Poetry Prize, and the Lu Xun Literature Prize for Poetry.

“谈论诗歌时我们在谈论什么？——臧棣诗歌讲读会”现场来宾合影

Group photo of the guest of "What are we talking about when we talk about poetry？——Zang Di poetry lecture reading” 

“明圆 · 海上诗歌艺术沙龙——《城市 · 言志》系列” 由上海明圆美术馆主办，于2019年启动，由诗人古冈担任活动策划和主持。“城市·言志”立足于城市生活经验的真实感觉，寻找具有代表性的当代诗人，从诗歌立场、文本赏析和接受美学等多层面上，与公众分享、剖析诗人个体如何处理传统语境与当代现实，诗意和思想上的古今与中西之融合、变化。

Organized by Shanghai Ming Yuan Art Museum, the “City - Words of Will series" is launched in 2019 and is planned and hosted by poet Gou Gang. Based on the real feeling of urban life experience, “City - Words of Will series” seeks out representative contemporary poets to share and analyze how individual poets deal with traditional contexts and contemporary realities, and the fusion of ancient and modern poetry and ideas, as well as the changes between the East and the West, from the standpoint of poetry, text appreciation and reception aesthetics.

“谈论诗歌时我们在谈论什么？——臧棣诗歌讲读会”嘉宾签名

"What are we talking about when we talk about poetry？——Zang Di poetry lecture reading”guest signing

“谈论诗歌时我们在谈论什么？——臧棣诗歌讲读会”蒲团上的诗稿

"What are we talking about when we talk about poetry？——Zang Di poetry lecture reading” poetry manuscript on the futon

他的诗歌，在岁月的缝隙里隐藏，或在人生的洪流中，静水流深。他的诗歌，是千帆归来，映照人生的水面，通透净亮。他的诗歌，是普世的译者，他在词句的蓝天上罕见地建立自己独特的言说方式，在诗歌中建立与世界万物之间的沟通与对话，他重新编织语言、生活与想象，为人类的诗歌带来了他独特的天真与智性的辨析。

His poetry, hidden in the crevices of the years, or in the torrent of life, still run deep. His poetry is the return of a thousand sails, reflecting the water of life, transparent and clear. His poems are universal translators, and he rarely establishes his own unique way of speaking in the blue sky of poetry, and establishes communication and dialogues with all things in the world in his poems. He reweaves language, life and imagination, and brings his unique naiveté and intellectual discernment to the poetry of mankind.

他是臧棣，他在2022年的夜晚获得"第八届鲁迅文学奖诗歌奖"，臧棣与他所著的《诗歌植物学》，体悟大千宏微，辩听灵性回声，在深邃的对话中抵达对人与自然的赞美。他在2023的夜晚伴着秋日的清风来到明圆美术馆“第二十九期诗歌沙龙”，臧棣带来他的新著《非常诗道》，感受当代诗歌的断章式与片段性的思考荟萃，于精炼行间见篇章奥义，直观的洞悉诗歌语言中的本质。

He is Zang Di, who got the "Eighth Lu Xun Literature Prize for Poetry" on the night of 2022. Zang Di and his book "Poetry Botany" realize the grandeur and subtlety of the great world, listen to the echoes of spirituality, and arrive at the praise of human beings and nature in profound dialogues. He came to the 29th Poetry Salon of Mingyuan on the night of 2023 with the breeze of autumn. Zang Di brought his new book "Very Poetic Paths", experience the collection of contemporary poetry's breaks and fragments, to see the meaning of the chapter between the refined lines, and to gain an intuitive insight into the essence of the language of poetry.

主宾诗人臧棣在现场签名与留笔

Cao Seng signed and writed at the signature wall

2023年9月8日的夜晚，上海结束了延绵不断的雨，将城市揉进温暖的艳阳天，伴随微微凉风、清脆虫鸣、簌簌叶吟，迎来一位纯洁而敏锐的诗人，臧棣和他的《非常诗道》，与我们一同谈论朝向新生、朝向未知、且根植于生命的诗歌想象。

On the night of September 8, 2023, Shanghai put an end to the prolonged rain, took the city into a warm sunny day, accompanied by a slight cool breeze, crisp insects, and rustling leaves, welcomed a pure and perceptive poet, Zang Di, with his “Very Poetic Paths”, talkes about the new, unknown, and rooted in life, at the twenty-ninth edition of the Poetry Salon by the Sea.

“谈论诗歌时我们在谈论什么？——臧棣诗歌讲读会”活动介绍

"What are we talking about when we talk about poetry？——Zang Di poetry lecture reading” activity introduction

活动的伊始，策划主持古冈感谢了现场来宾莅临明圆美术馆的新展馆，共同开启此次诗歌的对谈。古冈提及自己与臧棣开始写作诗歌的时日相近，却早早感受到臧棣诗歌之“奇”，也欣然体悟到臧棣《燕园纪事》中诗性与人性的无限遐迩。

At the beginning of the event, the curator and host, Goka, thanked the guests for coming to the new exhibition hall of Mingyuan Art Museum and opened the conversation on poetry. Goka mentioned that he and Zang Di started writing poems at a similar time, but he felt the wonder and absurdity of Zang Di's poems at an early age, and he also realized the infinite distance between poetry and humanity in Zang Di's "Chronicle of Yanyuan".

对于此次诗歌讲读会的题目“谈论诗歌时我们在谈论什么？” 古冈饶有趣味地抛出了一份疑问，谈论诗歌不是在谈论诗歌本身，诗歌里的臧棣是在谈论什么？

In response to the title of this poetry reading, "What are we talking about when we talk about poetry?" Gugaoka intriguingly posed the question, What is Zang Di in poetry talking about when we don't talk about the poem itself?

策划主持古冈开场主持

Curatorial host Gu Gang had an opening speak

主宾诗人臧棣接过话筒之际，同样向所有到场来宾献上真诚的感谢，随后讲述自己对于此次诗歌沙龙题目的所思。臧棣说道：“谈论诗歌，不一定要谈论诗，也可以谈论与诗歌无关的众多因素，这些因素可能与诗歌无关，却让我们在跳出诗歌之后反而发现诗歌的本源。”

When the guest of honor, Zang Di, took the microphone, he also offered his sincere thanks to all the guests and then talked about his thoughts on the title of this poetry salon. Zang Di said: "When we talk about poetry, we don't necessarily have to talk about the poem, but we can also talk about many factors that have nothing to do with poetry, which may not have anything to do with poetry, but allow us to discover the essence of poetry after we step out of the poem. "

而提及关于诗歌的本源，臧棣提及了自己刚触及诗歌脚踝的年少时光，两位诗人为他拉开了一丝与诗歌对话的光隙，兰波那份“生命不过是温柔的疯狂”之野性为他带来诗歌极致的纯粹，艾略特那份“我的生命很轻，在等待死亡的风，如同我手背上的一根羽毛”之抒情为他带来诗歌绝对的现代，他在朦胧中受到吸引，让他追逐诗歌的自由、诗歌的情感、诗歌的抗争，且不羁文人设下的束缚。

When it came to the origin of poetry, Zang Di mentioned his youthful days when he just touched the ankle of poetry, and the two poets opened up a light gap for him to have a dialogue with poetry. The wildness of Rimbaud's "life is but gentle madness" brought him the ultimate purity of poetry, and the openness of Eliot's "My life is light, waiting for the winds of death, as a feather on the back of my hand" brought him the broad calmness of poetry, which attracted him to it in a hazy way, allowed him to chase after the freedom of poetry, the emotion of poetry, and the resistance of poetry, and to be uninhibited by the constraints set by the literati.

策划主持古冈与主宾诗人臧棣开场交流

Curatorial host Gu Gang and guest poet Zang Di had an opening exchange

臧棣提及他也在斟酌诗歌的词藻中感受过痛苦，他感受自己无法以诗歌为语，连接和世界的对话，又感到自己孕育的词句不含生命的穿透力。在痛苦不断的延长中，他蓦然串起创作和生活的联系。对于这段经历，他说：“一个对诗歌执着的人转向一个研究生活的人，因此诗歌变得有了层次，也有了诗歌的裂变。”

Zang Di mentioned that he also felt pain in deliberating the words of his poems, he felt his inability to use poetry as a language to connect and talk to the world, and moved that the words and phrases he had birthed didn't contain the penetrating power of life, and in the prolongation of the pain that kept on prolonging, he leapt over his shoulder and strung together the connection between his creation and his life. Of this experience, he says, "A person obsessed with poetry turns to the study of life, and thus poetry becomes layered and fissured."

诗歌中的臧棣仿佛从未停止向上的摸索，不满足于诗性的纯粹，不沦为现实的犬儒，而是为生活之肺的低音对称出真正有慰藉性的高音，他不停止自我与生命之间永无止境的交谈，给予灵魂最清澈的慰藉。

Zang Di never stopped the positive finding of poerty, not being satisfied with poetic purity, not being reduced to a cynicism of reality, but symmetrical for the bass of the lungs of life with a truly comforting tenor, he does not stop the never-ending conversations between the self and the life that gives the soul the clearest solace.

主宾诗人臧棣讲述自己与诗歌对话的过程

Guest poet Zang Di talked about his conversations with poetry

评论家、诗人钱文亮谈论臧棣对于诗歌词藻独有的发明能力

Critic、poet Qian Wenliang talked about Zang Di's unique ability to invent poetic diction

诗人、艺术家韩博言说臧棣如何以诗歌构筑自我的世界

Poet、artist Han Bo talked about how Zang Di constructed his world through poetry 

诗人、文学评论家木叶谈论臧棣所写诗歌的颠覆性

Poet、literary critic Mu Ye talked ahout the subversive nature of Zang Di's poetry

学者、诗人黄家光讲述臧棣打破诗歌传统带来的感悟

Scholar、poet Huang Jiaguang said the feeling Zang Di broke the legacy of poetry

诗人、学者曹僧讲述了语言和诗歌关系带来的感悟

Poet、scholar Cao Seng took about the insights that come from the relationship between language and poem

诗人、学者王子瓜谈论诗歌在文学中的特殊性

Poet、scholar Wang Zigua talked about the specificity of poetry in literature

臧棣并不是对至高的灵魂慰藉无动于衷的诗人，但他并不满足于用升高音调的方式轻易抵达廉价的高空，而是选择像水一样，嵌入地表，奋力下潜，在把自己的诗歌声带下潜到现实生活的低音区的过程中实现不断超重的、颠簸的、但也同样轻盈的超越。这是水的智慧，也是诗的智慧，这样的智者之诗值得永无止境地谈论。

Zang Di is not a poet who is indifferent to the solace of the supreme soul, but he is not satisfied with easily arriving at cheap heights by raising his pitch, but chooses instead to embed himself in the ground like water and dive down, realizing a constantly overweight, lurching, but equally light transcendence in the process of lowering his poetic vocal cords to the bass zone of real life. This is the wisdom of water and the wisdom of poetry, and the poetry of such a wise man is worth talking about forever.

“真者，所以受于天地，自然不可易。”出自《庄子·渔夫》，可译为人受自天地而不被世俗改变，是世间难能可贵的珍宝。诗歌的可贵是它们可以饱含对时代、社会、人性的最真实与深刻的洞察。诗人面对整个世界、面对真实的生活，从一种强烈的情绪中跳脱出来，独自置身于伟大的风暴中。

"The true one, so received from heaven and earth, is naturally unchangeable." From Zhuangzi - The Fisherman, which can be translated to mean that a person who receives from heaven and earth without being changed by the world is a rare and precious treasure of time. The preciousness of poems is that they can be full of the truest and deepest insights into the times, society, and human nature. The poet confronts the whole world, confronts real life, jumps out of a strong emotion and is alone in the great storm. 

现场回顾 Live Review

来宾在现场留下了细致的记录与笔记

Guests left meticulous records and notes on site

现场来宾向臧棣提问关于北京大学与复旦大学培养的诗歌文化之差异

Guests asked Zang Di about the difference in poetry culture between Beijing University and Fudan University

特别鸣谢：嘉宾特写镜头来自于著名摄影师杭鳴

Special thanks: The close-up photo of the guests is from the famous photographer Hang Ming

策划主持 Organizer & Host

古冈，诗人、华东师范大学出版社“六点诗丛”主理人和编辑、《艺术外滩》杂志主编和艺术外滩浦西馆学术委员。著有《古冈短诗选》《尘世的重负——1987—2011诗选》等诗集，在《书城》等报刊杂志发表随笔文论等。曾获诗东西-DJS诗集奖，首届上海国际诗歌节诗歌创作大赛奖和北京文艺网国际华文诗歌奖。

Gugang is a poet, editor-in-chief of the Six Points Poetry Series of East China Normal University Press, editor-in-chief of Art on the Bund magazine and academic member of Art on the Bund Puxi Pavilion. He is the author of "Gugang's Selected Short Poems" and "The Weight of the World: Selected Poems from 1987-2011", and has published essays and articles in "Book City" and other newspapers and magazines. He has received the Poetry Stuff-DJS Poetry Collection Award, the First Shanghai International Poetry Festival Poetry Writing Competition Award and the Beijing Literature and Arts Network International Chinese Poetry Award.

编辑：王傲霏

二审：牛莉

终审：金石开、蓝野